What would it take to get Bloodlines running on a newer version of Source? I wanted to make this thread to talk about exactly that. I'm talking only about getting the base game, as it was released, running on a new version of the engine. I'm aware that this has been attempted before with varying degrees of success, and part of this thread should 100% be about discussing those too. What happened to them? What issues did they face? How can future attempts avoid those issues? And of course, is it even worth it try?
I think it would be rather easy to convert the maps to a newer source engine, but I don't see how the whole tying together of maps, stats, dialogues and Python scripts would work without having the source code.
I guess the next question would be then, how could this be done without the source code? The Morrowind Mod OpenMW for example manages something similar without it, all while skirting around the legality of it all. Of course, something akin OpenMW would be a colossal effort for something we have yet to discuss the upsides to.
What would it take to get Bloodlines running on a newer version of Source? I wanted to make this thread to talk about exactly that. I'm talking only about getting the base game, as it was released, running on a new version of the engine. I'm aware that this has been attempted before with varying degrees of success, and part of this thread should 100% be about discussing those too. What happened to them? What issues did they face? How can future attempts avoid those issues? And of course, is it even worth it try?
It would be an enormous amount of work, so much so that I'm certain remaking the game outright would take less time. Bloodlines Resurgence attempted it for a few years before eventually abandoning the project and switching to Unity later.
The problems they ran into
1. The changes Troika made to the engine are still to this day not fully understood. The model and animation format for example have never been fully cracked. Not to mention you'd need to re-rig all the models anyway because VtmB1 used a proprietary implementation for jigglebones because Source didn't support them yet. They did add support for them years later but it would require re-rigging everything that used them. 2. An enormous amount of VtmB1 was done in a hacky way. The developers hardcoded most of the game's logic. In many instances using the Source engine limited the game drastically. A good example is the way the journal works is triggers fire off when you load the level which then populate it. They did it this way due to the game's very short development time and due to struggling with trying to put an RPG onto the Source engine. 3. The amount of developers who are capable of working with the Source engine is extremely small. This was the biggest issue that Bloodlines Resurgence ran into which heavily contributed to them abandoned the engine. It was hard finding out "is xxyy possible" much less finding someone who would actually implement it.
This is why they ended up switching to Unity as it allowed for recruiting new developers way easier. They could also properly implement a lot of features in the game modularly. They also planned on features like multiplayer with different playable races. And we'd likely be playing it today had CCP not C&D'd it many years ago.
I guess the next question would be then, how could this be done without the source code? The Morrowind Mod OpenMW for example manages something similar without it, all while skirting around the legality of it all. Of course, something akin OpenMW would be a colossal effort for something we have yet to discuss the upsides to.
Not easily. It would require a very large amount of reverse engineering. People forget that OpenMW started development in 2008 and still isn't done, they haven't hit 1.0 yet. OpenMW is a massive project that also benefitted from Bethesda's engines being very well understood. Its model format for example was cracked in the early 2000s and there are no shortage of plugins and converter tools for it.
The only way you could full on create a VtmB1 source port would be to take one of the leaked source engine source codes that exist online, then reverse engineer VtmB1's changes. This would be an enormous amount of work that would be questionably legal, as you'd not just need to worry about Paradox but also Valve.
Last Edit: Jan 22, 2024 10:47:39 GMT by thatdarnowl
Why on earth are people fixated with Bloodlines on Source.
Some says it does an (uncomparable) great job in handling lip-sincing....
Facial animations overall are still almost unreached today! Cyberpunk comes close, but The Outer Worlds or any Unreal 3/4/5 or Bethesda game fails in comparison. Also all models and maps could be converted much easier, although from what I have seen of Source 2, there isn't much difference in the first place so I don't see a need for a remaster anyway!
I agree, Bloodlines is fine as it is and it wouldn't be much better in Source 2 or any other engine. With a little bit of luck we will get a RTX overhaul which might make it look nicer on modern GPUs, otherwise I suggest that any modder needing work should start recreating the two expansions that Tim Cain talked about in his videos instead!
What would it take to get Bloodlines running on a newer version of Source? I wanted to make this thread to talk about exactly that. I'm talking only about getting the base game, as it was released, running on a new version of the engine. I'm aware that this has been attempted before with varying degrees of success, and part of this thread should 100% be about discussing those too. What happened to them? What issues did they face? How can future attempts avoid those issues? And of course, is it even worth it try?
It would be an enormous amount of work, so much so that I'm certain remaking the game outright would take less time. Bloodlines Resurgence attempted it for a few years before eventually abandoning the project and switching to Unity later.
The problems they ran into
1. The changes Troika made to the engine are still to this day not fully understood. The model and animation format for example have never been fully cracked. Not to mention you'd need to re-rig all the models anyway because VtmB1 used a proprietary implementation for jigglebones because Source didn't support them yet. They did add support for them years later but it would require re-rigging everything that used them. 2. An enormous amount of VtmB1 was done in a hacky way. The developers hardcoded most of the game's logic. In many instances using the Source engine limited the game drastically. A good example is the way the journal works is triggers fire off when you load the level which then populate it. They did it this way due to the game's very short development time and due to struggling with trying to put an RPG onto the Source engine. 3. The amount of developers who are capable of working with the Source engine is extremely small. This was the biggest issue that Bloodlines Resurgence ran into which heavily contributed to them abandoned the engine. It was hard finding out "is xxyy possible" much less finding someone who would actually implement it.
This is why they ended up switching to Unity as it allowed for recruiting new developers way easier. They could also properly implement a lot of features in the game modularly. They also planned on features like multiplayer with different playable races. And we'd likely be playing it today had CCP not C&D'd it many years ago.
I guess the next question would be then, how could this be done without the source code? The Morrowind Mod OpenMW for example manages something similar without it, all while skirting around the legality of it all. Of course, something akin OpenMW would be a colossal effort for something we have yet to discuss the upsides to.
Not easily. It would require a very large amount of reverse engineering. People forget that OpenMW started development in 2008 and still isn't done, they haven't hit 1.0 yet. OpenMW is a massive project that also benefitted from Bethesda's engines being very well understood. Its model format for example was cracked in the early 2000s and there are no shortage of plugins and converter tools for it.
The only way you could full on create a VtmB1 source port would be to take one of the leaked source engine source codes that exist online, then reverse engineer VtmB1's changes. This would be an enormous amount of work that would be questionably legal, as you'd not just need to worry about Paradox but also Valve.
Well dang, I guess this was the answer I was looking for. Thank you for being so concise. As for the Source Engine source code, I wonder if what was released for Alien Swarm could be applied.
It seems like a lot of work to only get a C&D and that if it was even successfully completed.
I actually don't see Paradox C&Ding a fan port.
When CCP did it, it was because they were putting out a World of Darkness mmorpg. They wanted to do a WoD mmorpg because they wanted an mmorpg that would appeal to women. As opposed to Eve online which primarily appeals to men. At the time the WoD mmorpg was getting very lackluster press attention, journalists were more interested in reporting on fans porting Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines to Unity. Which led to them becoming insecure and C&Ding the project to avoid competing directly with fans for attention.
Another factor is Project Vaulderie didn't do themselves much favors as they weren't clear if the project was just a fan remake or not. If it was clearly advertised that you needed to own a copy of the game and no assets were redistributed I somewhat doubt CCP would've done it. It would've been theoretically possible to structure the project in this way, albeit it would've taken significantly more work. (The model/animation format for example would need to be fully reverse engineered and a script would need to be written to translate it into Unity's engine).
Regardless CCP did it, it got a lot of negative press and negative attention. They cancelled their WoD mmorpg something like a year later. After that they sold the IP to Paradox. Paradox has been noticeably more pro modding and pro fan productions. They full on have a service where you can license their IP from them directly. Not to mention someone has been remaking Vampire the Masquerade Redemption in Skyrim's engine and thus far Paradox hasn't cared. It was even posted about freely on their Discord server.
Well dang, I guess this was the answer I was looking for. Thank you for being so concise. As for the Source Engine source code, I wonder if what was released for Alien Swarm could be applied.
They switched from the Orange Box version of Source to the Alien Swarm version at one point however the aforementioned issues of "we can't find people who can do high level reverse engineering who want to work with the Source engine" cropped up. It doesn't really matter if something can be done in theory as it matters if you can actually find someone willing to do it.
Last Edit: Jan 24, 2024 4:19:42 GMT by thatdarnowl
I agree, Bloodlines is fine as it is and it wouldn't be much better in Source 2 or any other engine. With a little bit of luck we will get a RTX overhaul which might make it look nicer on modern GPUs, otherwise I suggest that any modder needing work should start recreating the two expansions that Tim Cain talked about in his videos instead!
I wouldn't mind sacrificing one feature in favor of a working engine :/ but that's only my opinion.
Anyway, regarding the proposed expansions I have a few ideas and I hope to put them on action someday....
It seems like a lot of work to only get a C&D and that if it was even successfully completed.
I actually don't see Paradox C&Ding a fan port.
When CCP did it, it was because they were putting out a World of Darkness mmorpg. They wanted to do a WoD mmorpg because they wanted an mmorpg that would appeal to women. As opposed to Eve online which primarily appeals to men. At the time the WoD mmorpg was getting very lackluster press attention, journalists were more interested in reporting on fans porting Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines to Unity. Which led to them becoming insecure and C&Ding the project to avoid competing directly with fans for attention.
Another factor is Project Vaulderie didn't do themselves much favors as they weren't clear if the project was just a fan remake or not. If it was clearly advertised that you needed to own a copy of the game and no assets were redistributed I somewhat doubt CCP would've done it. It would've been theoretically possible to structure the project in this way, albeit it would've taken significantly more work. (The model/animation format for example would need to be fully reverse engineered and a script would need to be written to translate it into Unity's engine).
Regardless CCP did it, it got a lot of negative press and negative attention. They cancelled their WoD mmorpg something like a year later. After that they sold the IP to Paradox. Paradox has been noticeably more pro modding and pro fan productions. They full on have a service where you can license their IP from them directly. Not to mention someone has been remaking Vampire the Masquerade Redemption in Skyrim's engine and thus far Paradox hasn't cared. It was even posted about freely on their Discord server.
Well dang, I guess this was the answer I was looking for. Thank you for being so concise. As for the Source Engine source code, I wonder if what was released for Alien Swarm could be applied.
They switched from the Orange Box version of Source to the Alien Swarm version at one point however the aforementioned issues of "we can't find people who can do high level reverse engineering who want to work with the Source engine" cropped up. It doesn't really matter if something can be done in theory as it matters if you can actually find someone willing to do it.
I was looking to subscribe to that MMO at the time and I do remember the negative press.
With regards to Project Vaulderie. CCP would likely have done the same thing regardless. I'm not sold on them not doing it. Knee Jerk reaction. It's a shame companies don't reach out and talk to them/fa/modders for clear answers through correspondance. You know what I'm getting at. Longevity.
Why wouldn't you want the original Assets? I want Bloodlines to be and look like Bloodlines.
I didn't realise Redemption was being remade in Skyrim engine. Maybe, Paradox is saying nothing because of new game = poop or is this a very long term mod. I don't know.
I should boot up Redemption soon and Play it through!
I agree, Bloodlines is fine as it is and it wouldn't be much better in Source 2 or any other engine. With a little bit of luck we will get a RTX overhaul which might make it look nicer on modern GPUs, otherwise I suggest that any modder needing work should start recreating the two expansions that Tim Cain talked about in his videos instead!
I wouldn't mind sacrificing one feature in favor of a working engine :/ but that's only my opinion.
Anyway, regarding the proposed expansions I have a few ideas and I hope to put them on action someday....
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